"Our previous pastor was pretty conservative,and when Jack came he took out thecommunion rails, many pews, statues and the confessionals."

A Lived Faith

By James Hitchcock

Reporter: Our paper is doing a series of articles on what modern people believe. Your name has been given us as someone who can express the viewpoint of today's Catholic.

Do you think it is important to belong to a church?

Parishioner: Oh, absolutely! We can't go it alone. I need the support and encouragement which other people give me.

R.: Do you need the structure of the Church, though?

P.: There you've got me! I guess the structure does seem often to impede my faith rather than help me. But I can work around it.

R.: How do you do that?

P.: For one thing, I belong to a great parish. We're really Vatican II, and Jack, our pastor-everyone just calls him Jack-is absolutely the best. He always affirms people.

R.: He's popular with everybody?

P.: Well, almost everybody. Actually when he came to us ten years ago, some of the things he did upset the more conservative parishioners, and a fair number of people left the parish. Jack says he's sorry about that, but that some people can't be allowed to impede the Church's vision. Since then the word has gotten around, and people have started coming from other parishes, so I think we broke even on the deal. (Laughs.)

R.: What is there about this parish?

P.: Oh, the vibrant spirit, the community, the feeling of belonging! You know, at the 11:00 Sunday Eucharist the church literally jumps, the music is so vital, and sometimes the kiss of peace can go on for twenty minutes, while Jack is laughing at the microphone trying to get everybody to go back to their seats.

R.: The Catholic Church says its sacraments are the center of its life. Is that true for you?

P.: Again, absolutely, especially the Eucharist. I don't know what I would do without it.

R.: How does it affect you?

P.: Well, it just sums up the wonderful spirit of community we have. Sometimes during the week I may feel down, or God may seem far away. But when I get together with these people on Sunday we really do see God in one another. We know Jesus is among us, because I think each of us is bringing a little bit of Jesus when we come. I mean, I never feel so great as I do at that Eucharist every week.

R.: Doesn't the Catholic Church also teach that the priest makes Jesus present on the altar through his power?

P.: (Frowning) I guess. But Jack says there has been a lot of misunderstanding about that. When he came here one of the things which upset some people most was the fact that he put the tabernacle into a corner, behind a post, and now it's just a plain wooden box. But Jack says the only reason we have a tabernacle is to keep the Eucharist for the sick, and it was always a mistake for people to think they were supposed to pray before it, or genuflect when they passed it.

R.: So you don't believe what the Church used to call the "real presence"?

P.: I'm not sure. The real presence is when Jesus is in each of us when we love one another. I think the business about the tabernacle is just a distraction. Maybe the Puritans went too far when they called their churches just meeting houses, but I think we went way too far in the other direction. Jack says he's glad in a way that the crime problem forces us to lock our churches, because it has cured people of the misconception that there's something sacred about the building. We make it sacred by our presence, when Jesus is in our midst. Sue, our pastoral associate-she's a nun, and she's great too-read something in a publication put out by the diocese of LaCrosse, Wisconsin, in which the writer pointed out how the Church has deliberately made the phrase "the Body of Christ" ambiguous. It doesn't refer just to the communion wafer but to all of us. Sue says it's an example of the old principle that you figure out what the Church believes on the basis of how it prays, and we just don't believe in a lot of those old things any more.

R.: I understand your church has been very much modernized.

P.: Oh yes, we're sort of a model for that. Perhaps infamous to some people! (Laughs.) Our previous pastor was pretty conservative, and when Jack came he took out the communion rails, many of the pews, the confessionals, the statues, the side altars, the stations of the cross. Even after the altar was turned around, we still had the old heavy marble one. Now we have a plain wooden table. We don't have one of those massive kind of depressing crucifixes over the altar but just a plain cross off to one side. Jack says that he wishes he had been sent to start a new parish, and he wouldn't build a church at all, just an all-purpose meeting room. But our church is an older, gothic style building, so some people are hung up on preserving it.

R.: This music of yours is rather famous too, isn't it?

P.: You can say that again! It's mainly by the Youth Choir that sings every Sunday, with some adults joining in. They can blast you out of the building sometimes, but it's great.

R.: Do you ever use more traditional music?

P.: No. It just doesn't seem to fit.

R.: There is a disk of monks chanting Gregorian Chant that is a best-seller. Have you heard it?

P.: No, and I don't think I want to. I remember that chant as always sounding like a funeral. Our faith is supposed to be joyful. There's no room for solemnity or negative feelings.

R.: Why do you think the disk has been so popular?

P.: I don't know. I think it must be some kind of gimmick.

R.: What about the other sacraments?

P.: Baptism is crucial, of course, because that's when the community welcomes a new member and signifies its acceptance of them. Sue thinks we should postpone it until the kids are old enough to decide for themselves. That's one of the few things she and Jack disagree about. He says it's appropriate for the community to welcome infants.

R.: So you don't think baptism takes away original sin?

P.: (Shudders.) Certainly not! I can't believe that an innocent little child could in any way be guilty of sin.

R.: What about the other sacraments?

P.: Well, marriage of course, and we have ordinations. Confirmation, I'm not sure what it means. Jack and Sue both agree that it should be put off until the kids are in high school, and it should be the sign that they have freely decided to join the Church.

R.: Anointing of the Sick?

P.: That's important, because I think we now realize that the spiritual encouragement people get when they are sick can affect their recovery. And if the person really is dying, they need someone to comfort them at the end.

R.: But it has nothing to do with saving their souls?

P.: That's entirely in God's hands. I don't think human beings have anything to do with it.

R.: Do you believe in life after death?

P.: I think so, at least most of the time. But it's not because it's a doctrine of the Church. It just seems to me that, when we have lived good lives, we ought not to be snuffed out, that we ought to move into an eternal dimension where our good qualities will be fully developed.

R.: What about hell?

P.: (Shudders.) I absolutely do not believe in it! Jack says it's a contradiction, because the Church has always taught that God is all-good and all-merciful, so how could anyone be damned?

R.: "Everyone" brings up the matter of Hitler and other obviously evil people.

P.: I really don't know. I heard a priest once say that God is so merciful that, if we don't understand the truth while we are alive, we receive full enlightenment just after we die, so we can enter eternal life.

R.: You haven't mentioned Penance.

P.: In our parish we don't "hear confessions," as they used to say. It's in the bulletin that anyone who wants to go should contact the rectory. We have communal penance services a few times a year, and some people go to Jack or the other priest, or even to Sue, for one-on-one spiritual counseling. The whole thing of penance was negative again. I remember one of the greatest flashes of enlightenment I ever had was when I heard a priest say right after the Council that evil is merely our failure to realize our full potential. Once I understood that I stopped feeling guilty about all the little things that used to bother me and that I used to confess to a priest.

R.: Since your parish is so vital, I take it the faith is being passed on to the next generation?

P.: Absolutely. The kids tell us they never feel comfortable in church except when they are in the parish. Now it's true that during the Summer, when the Youth Choir is on vacation, a lot of those kids don't go to church. But maybe they don't really need it. If the liturgy is not a meaningful experience for you, there is no reason to force yourself to participate.

R.: There are surveys which show that young Catholics today are ignorant of their faith. Is your parish an exception?

P.: You should ask Sue that question. She gets livid when she hears stuff like that. All that means is that today's kids have not been forced to memorize a lot of abstract ideas. Instead they have been trying to live the faith.

R.: How do they live it?

P.: (Pauses.) Just by being such great kids! They are so sensitive and compassionate. I have taught C.C.D., and sometimes it awes me to hear them talking in a group about things that bother them, about the problems they face, about how the Church so often fails them. These are deeply serious and sensitive kids, not robots like we were at their age.

R.: As a woman, do you feel comfortable staying in the Catholic Church in view of its stand on the ordination of women?

P.: Here's where I really have a bone to pick with the media. That is not the teaching of the Church! It is the teaching of some of the hierarchy, of the present pope.

R.: So where is the teaching of the Church found?

P.: Jack uses a Latin phrase for it-it means the sense of the faithful. He says it has always been Church teaching, which got distorted after the Reformation made the Church so reactionary. The Church is all of us, not just the hierarchy. The belief of the Church is when we all come together and pool our personal faith. The hierarchy doesn't only teach the laity, it also has to learn from them.

R.: But what happens on an issue like this, when some people say Jesus would not allow the ordination of women, and others say it is immoral not to ordain them?

P.: Jack says we should try to hold the community together as long as we can-he's really good at achieving consensus-but in the end we should side with the people who are inclusive and broad-minded, rather than those who exclude others. Some day, he says, the whole Church will realize that those who oppose women's ordination are just wrong. They aren't really part of the sense of the faithful, which is moving in the opposite direction.

R.: Still, some women say they cannot belong to a church which excludes women, however much support they may get locally.

P.: I admit it made me angry when the Pope came out with his latest statement. But as usual Jack calmed the troubled waters. He says there's a cardinal over in Milan who has all but said that it is not a closed question, and that this cardinal will probably be the next pope. So Jack says that, while he understands our anger, we should be patient and in time it will come.

R.: You have indicated that the younger generation is carrying on the faith. But have the changes alienated the older generation?

P.: Some, I guess. But then take my mother. (Laughs.) She's quite a woman! She used to be very conservative right after the Council, but now she's more radical than I am. Actually she has more time to read and to go to discussion groups and things than I do, and I'm always amazed at some of the things she knows.

R.: What caused her to get over her conservatism?

P.: She went to a retreat at a retreat house run by nuns, a place she had been going for years. And the retreat director asked how many women had done altar work-ironing linens, cleaning the sanctuary, etc. Of course most of them had. He then told them to go back to their rooms and meditate on whether they felt abused by being asked to do menial labor but not being allowed to be priests, or even servers. It really disturbed mother at first, but when the group came back together for discussion it turned out that almost all of them did feel abused. Ever since then Mom just hasn't looked back!

R.: But she's still a Catholic?

P.: Oh yes. But she won't go to the Eucharist unless she knows who the priest is and what kind of liturgy it's going to be. As I said, she reads and studies more than I do, and her study group is the center of her religious life. Those old gals are amazing! They long ago branched out beyond the Christian Bible. They've read books about goddesses, and about how women were empowered in the early Church until there was a male reaction. Now they're reading some Buddhist scriptures. Mom never gets tired of saying that no one has a monopoly on the truth, that truth is where you find it.

R.: What is it that holds her in the Church?

P.: She's been in it for over seventy years, and she says she's not going to allow herself to be driven out. She's a very feisty lady! You know, she's been reading some books by Scripture scholars who say that Jesus did not really rise from the dead and did not claim to be the messiah.

R.: If someone believes that, why would they stay a Catholic?

P.: Mom's not sure how much of it she accepts, but she says that she has become so suspicious of Church officials that she has to take books of this kind seriously. She's read a book which says we place way too much emphasis on Jesus anyway.

R.: It's an old question, but if it were shown that Jesus' bones are buried in Palestine, would it affect your faith?

P.: Of course I would feel as though I had been lied to. But I don't think in the end it's really important whether Jesus literally rose from the dead. That vital spirit that I talked about is the main thing, and nothing can take that away from us.

R.: The Catholic Church is viewed as being morally very conservative. Does that bother you?

P.: Again, what do you mean by Church? Most of the people I know aren't morally conservative. We've done a pretty good job of adjusting to changing attitudes in society.

R.: Let's try a few issues. Pre-marital sex?

P.: My daughter lived with her boyfriend before they got married. It bothered my husband and me at first, but then we agreed that they were acting rather maturely. We would not have been capable of such a decision when we were their age. At that time Mom was still very conservative, and she called it a sin, which didn't help. But, you know, when they went to get pre-marital instructions the priest didn't lay any guilt on them at all. In fact he said he had found that when couples lived together they often were able to work out their problems before marriage and it was a stronger marriage as a result.

R.: Birth control is much in the news now, because of population control.

P.: I devoutly wish the hierarchy would get off that subject! They know nothing about it. But it's not a problem. No one ever mentions it around here, not even the bishop. When my daughter was getting pre-marital instructions-she had to, if she wanted a church wedding-the priest said it would be irresponsible not to limit the size of one's family and that the Church wants each couple to be comfortable with the methods they choose.

R.: Divorce?

P.: I'm exasperated at the official Church's pharisaical attitude, but it's a non-problem. We have a lot of divorced people in our parish, remarried out of the Church, and no one would dream of suggesting that they should not approach the Eucharist.

R.: These are people who can't get annulments?

P.: In some cases. But some haven't tried, because they think it's demeaning. Jack agrees, and he won't send through an annulment unless someone insists on it. When my daughter got divorced she decided not to ask for an annulment, and I admired her for her stand. But even Jack couldn't jeopardize his standing and take the chance of marrying her the second time, so we had a very nice wedding in a Protestant church.

R.: Homosexuality? The Church is accused of being homophobic.

P.: The diocese has got a terrific priest who is in charge of our AIDS ministry, and Jack brought him in to speak. He said the Church's teaching on homosexuality is no different from its teaching on everything else-we are supposed to be loving and compassionate towards one another, and are not supposed to judge them. Period. Anybody who goes beyond that is just not being a Christian. My sister's boy is gay, and he's a good kid.

R.: The one issue on which the Church has not budged is abortion. Does that bother you?

P.: I don't approve of abortion, and I don't think I could ever bring myself to have one, but I don't know how much of that is still the result of the brain-washing I got years ago. I know a woman, rather close to me, who had an abortion when she realized that having the child would disrupt her education. I can't say she was wrong. Again, Jack is wonderful. He preached a homily in which he quoted from an archbishop in Wisconsin who said we just don't listen to women who have abortions, and we lay guilt trips on them. Jack says we make too much of the issue, and our main duty is to assist women who feel they have to have an abortion. Above all we must try to assuage any guilt they may feel. I think the so-called pro-life movement is very hypocritical. Some of them favor capital punishment. Cardinal Bernardin has tried to get them to be consistent, but they're very narrow in their views.

R.: The new Catechism of the Catholic Church has sold millions of copies, and some people think it means a return to older ways of thinking. What do you think?

P.: I haven't bought one, and I've only leafed through it in our parish library. We need to put it in context. Sue says it's a mistake for people to run out and buy it, because it is really meant for bishops, professional catechists, publishers, and people like that. The whole point of modern catechetics is to translate abstract doctrines into terms the kids will understand, and it will be a disaster if people try to swallow the catechism whole. But the diocese is holding a conference on it for all the teachers, and Sue says they are bringing in some very good people who will make sure the teachers understand.

R.: Your parish doesn't have a school, is that correct?

P.: Yes, Jack closed it, with the consent of the parish council, not long after he came. It was another one of those things that drove some conservatives ballistic. But he says it was the best thing he ever did. He said a parish cannot justify spending that much of its budget on the school. Besides, he says that the whole idea of Catholic education was a holdover from our ghetto days, when we were afraid to mingle with the larger society. We have a flourishing C.C.D. program, thanks to Sue.

R.: Does it enroll most of the children?

P.: I'm not sure. I guess there are a lot of kids who don't come, but that doesn't worry me too much. Maybe they and their parents just don't feel the need for it right now.

R.: It sounds like you have a wonderful parish. But aren't you a little bothered at being sort of on the margins of the Church?

P.: Oh, but we aren't! We're right at the center. That's not only because we are the Church but because most Catholics think like we do. It's the official Church which is really on the margins.

R.: Does that include the Pope?

P.: (Sighs.) I'm afraid it does. Jack as usual puts it very well. He says he has respect for the Pope as an intelligent, spiritual, compassionate man who is unfortunately a prisoner of his own narrow religious upbringing and of some of the people he has surrounded himself with in Rome. Jack says we have an obligation to disagree with the Pope when we think he is not seeing, because that is how we show him love. The good of the Church would be served if he could be persuaded to change his mind about some things. Jack says we need the Pope, but in the sense of a clearing house and a coordinator for the wonderful things which go on all over the world at the local level.

R.: Your new bishop has a reputation for being conservative. Does that cause you any anxiety?

P.: For years we had a great, very liberal bishop. He once told Sue that not only did he wish he could ordain women, if he could Sue would be the first! When our present bishop was appointed two years ago, Sue was upset, because she had a friend in his diocese who told her he was definitely the Pope's man. But, as usual, Jack was right in counseling patience. He said he thought the new bishop would be capable of learning, and he said that even if the bishop tried to crack down, he would encounter so much opposition from the priests' senate and the religious orders that he would have to back down. Jack also thinks the bishop is very ambitious and wants to be an archbishop. It wouldn't do him any good if his name were in the media in a lot of quarrels. Rome would consider him too controversial. Jack really is great, because he understands how you use the system against itself.

R.: So the bishop has been no problem?

P.: No. He came to the parish for the Sunday Eucharist and Confirmation. I think he looked rather uncomfortable during the liturgy, but in his homily he went out of his way to say how beautiful the church is, how successful the renovations are, and how lucky we are to have such a zealous staff. He even praised the Youth Choir, although he jokingly touched his ears when he said that. I think everything is going to be alright.